Episode #97 – CAGEMATCH! What makes a PC/MAC what they are?
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Mark (The Zune Guy) Metz and Cal take on the subject of what makes a Mac or a PC what they are in a new CAGEMATCH edition!
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Gid, Metz is weak, please get Rachel to show up more often. First he sets up a straw man (Macs never break), and then says don’t try to convince me because I use both and I know). Well, I use both too, Apples since the Apple ][, Macs since the beginning (and the Lisa), PCs since the IBM PC, Windows since the beginning, and I managed a PC support area supporting over a thousand computers. However, unlike Metz, I don’t consider myself the ultimate authority. Let’s not look at anecdotal evidence, let’s look at something reasonably objective with a sample size of tens of thousands. Every year PC Magazine does a reliability and service survey. Apple consistently comes out on top in desktops and laptops. In fact, they finish ahead of machines that people build themselves.
No problems, of course not, all computers have problems, including a decent percentage of failure the first time you turn them on. Fewer problems? Absolutely. Entire classes of problems – driver issues for graphics cards causing blue screens of death, for example, simply don’t exist on the Mac.
In all seriousness, this might be worse than when Beau was co-hosting.
Dude Bob, that’s harsh, I mean…worse than Beau?….*shiver*
(kidding)
I enjoyed the cage match, but at least in my case Mark is wrong. I like Ubuntu Linux very much indeed, but the one thing that stops me going over to it is the Mac Hardware (I would miss Scrivener too).
What I think that Mark missed was the whole Apple package (hardware, software and support). It all fits together and it works in a way that Windows never did for me and probably never will.
Thanks Cal, but I don’t need help defending myself against the likes of Bob.
Okay, Bob, you’ve shown you have the ability to try and dish it out. Now let’s see if you can take it.
Your lack of perceptive skills are only outmatched by your lack in critical thinking because you are the only one stuffing the proverbial man with straw. My statemenst were in direct response to those already made on the podcast and in the chat room. Even though you weren’t in the chat room, it was clear from context of the audio that I was responding to statements posted there (These statements are quite common if you’d care to show up, and they’re not all as toungue-in-cheek as Cal’s.). Likewise, if you think the fallacy that Macs don’t break is not rampant you need to pull your head out of . . . something. Here is a quickly collected example. http://arandomseed.com/blog/2008/01/apple-it-just-works.html. So the only straw man is the one you hung out for me.
Appealing to authority? Me? Are you nuts? Not only did I disclaim my statements for this episode three times as anecdotes in response to anecdotes, I have disclaimed myself on the podcast multiple times as non-IT person. I am a user and a user advocate, and trained to be a critical thinker and skeptic. I don’t try to be as charismatic as Cal, nor as techonologically proficient as Rachel. But who’s the one constantly calling for support for these emphatic, platform positions? I’m not trying to promote a position, I’m just demanding that those who have a strong stance (This podcast just happens to be more Mac-centric.) provide some data to back it up.
So what do you offer? PC World Magazine response surveys? Bob, these are not only NOT “reasonably objective,” they aren’t even quasi-objective. If you’re going to rely on anonymous, self-reporting from niche readership, why not just use sales and market share? What better gauge of the computing populous’ preference/satisfaction than how they spend their money? Fallibility of survey data was also discussed at some length in comments after a previous post: http://pcmacsmackdown.com/how-apple-took-apple-care-of-me/#comments.
So, Bob, all chiding aside. You say “Fewer problems [with Macs]? Absolutely.” THIS is a definitive statement enveloped in a distinct perception of what can be classified as a “problem.” I say to you sir, “Prove it.” Define your distinction of a problem and prove that it is less common on a Mac. I’m receptive to all forms of data as long as they are open and reviewable. And please don’t insult the readers’ intelligence with something as juvenile as BSODs. That would be like a WFB saying you never get a spinning pinwheel in Windows.
And finally, you say “Entire classes of problems – driver issues for graphics cards causing blue screens of death, for example, simply don’t exist on the Mac,” but you are so wrong. BSODs only occur on the Mac if you’re running Windows, yes, but they do exist despite Apple’s closed system. And video driver problems in a Mac? According to the results of my Google searches, they definitely exist. Granted, you have to wade through a lot of posts about video problems with Windows and Ubuntu to find them, but they exist. Fewer problems than with a Windows machine? I’m willing to concede that this is probable, but I’m happy to repeat that I would sure like to see the data.
Please, post back with something more truthful and substantial.
@Avro
I understand the Apple ecosystem and I understand that you feel OSX is better than Linux or Windows. Besides, there is no Linux hardware you can go over to. You have to run it on something and that can be Apple hardware. That really wasn’t the point.
The discussion was supposed to be around these points. If you load Linux on your Macbook Pro is it still a Mac? If you hackintosh a netbook does it become a Mac? I don’t think the folks at the Genius bar want to support either. The purpose of the questions and the discussion was to explore how a user define’s for themselves what is appealing in their platform choice.
Like I said in the podcast, “Is it the OS? Is it the hardware? Or is it a both?” I’m presuming you would answer, “Both.” When I suggest that someone buy a Mac, it’s for a user who can benefit from the complete package from Apple.
It’s still my debate position, however, that what defines a platform is the OS. Apples/Macs had all the perceived advantages over Windows machines before Apple Care and Apple Stores, right, even when they were ugly plastic MaC II CXs and even uglier, bulkier Quadras?
Mark, Macintosh isn’t just a platform it’s a brand name a dell running mac os is not a mac, its a dell running mac os.
Since I got a shout out from Zuney, I figured it was only the responsible thing to do for me to respond.
The definition of a PC is a personal computer which is a very broad description. Windows and Mac both cater to the personal computer market. I think the presence of Linux in the personal computer market would be debatable, since Linux doesn’t really serve the commodity aspect of the consumer market. For now, we’ll include Linux in the fray.
In terms of hardware, there are a lot of ways to gauge quality. Materials, fit and finish, reliability, resale value, aesthetics and more. These days, the “green-ness” of the production should probably be considered.
Under these items, I think Apple’s hardware is rated at the top of the class. Even independent resources like Consumer Reports confirms the longevity and reliability of the Apple hardware platform.
Part of the reason this is true is that Apple is not in the market to compete for the lowest price. That market is self-destructive and probably will not lead to an overall improved customer experience.
Comparing OS X, Windows or Linux is a little more esoteric. Linux certainly has one advantage since you can actually chose the user interface that pleases you most. The other two are intended to be turn-key solutions with limited customization.
Since my experience with recent builds of linux is near zero, I’m going to move aside from that conversation. I do know that the little details that appear in OS X like the transitions, dissolves and such are there not because they are easy but because they make for an enjoyable experience. Changing back to Windows after using that for a while makes the Windows experience seem “harsh” by comparison. Of course, this is more opinion than quantifiable fact. However, the fact that Microsoft seems to be chasing Apple’s UI methods does seem to be a tip of the hat in that direction.
Microsoft writes the Windows operating system to appeal to all the hardware manufacturers to embrace and preload the operating system since they do not build their own computers.
Apple, on the other hand, builds hardware and as such preloads an operating system on the box which happens to be their own. It works differently because those that use Apple computers are often creative niche markets.
In some respects, Apple isn’t that much different than Dell. They both offer “their” hardware in configurations they predefine. For the percentage of those who want total control, they should or can buy a beige box and spec it out.
I used to be in the last bracket, but you know I got tired of all the problems with random blue screens, and hangs and the other caveats that came with being a “hobbiest” in the hardware respect. I changed to Apple’s product and have enjoyed not having to make every decision about every piece of hardware — and hoping that it just works.
So, I tend to consider quality as it pertains to the entire user experience. I think Apple provides the greatest value proposition in my mind.
Regarding netbooks, I am not sold on the fact that we’ve found a new way towards “zero” in pricing on non-Apple hardware. There is a growing number of people that are dissatisfied with the performance of the netbooks over the life of the user experience. I don’t think those that are buying those products realize exactly what they are giving up. Some know exactly, but again, like those who build beige boxes, they are likely the minority.
B.
@Craig
Ultimately I suppose your statement is accurate, but it makes for fairly boring discussion.
You might, however, consider the words of Shakespeare:
“What’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet”
Or James Whitcomb Riley:
“When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck”
@Brian
Very well put, Brian. Thanks for showing up. I’m not going to give you a pass, though.
Check – http://www.allpar.com/cr.html – for a short treatise on the reliability of Consumer Reports.
Also, I agree with the overall statements about the quality of the entire experience from Apple. I buy from them and suggest others buy from them for the same reason. Just like yours, this is my opinion. I just wish I had some data to support the quality argument.
Based on previous discussions we’ve had do you think the percentage of consumers who buy based on this quality is any higher than those who don’t realize a netbook is under powered?
And what about these hypothetical question: If I took away Apple Care, Apple Stores, and gave you a machine built like an Apple II, would you still prefer that machine over a Windows machine? Would that machine still be a Mac without the rest of the ecosystem?
I think you get what I’m driving at. People have been using and loving Macs well before the current Apple ecosystem.
Which? magazine is an English equivalent to the Consumer Reports you get in Canada and the US. Interestingly Which? reports very similar figures for reliability amongst the top computer brands. What differs greatly though is “owner satisfaction” – how satisfied the owner is with his purchase.
Like Mark I have owned both Windows PCs and Macs. My own experience has been that my Macs were just as reliable as my Dells and Toshibas, but that OS X was less troublesome than Windows and when something did go wrong with the Mac hardware that AppleCare did a much better and quicker job of fixing it than the OEM Windows brands.
I think there is a fair bit of truth in this advert.
http://movies.apple.com/media/us/mac/getamac/2009/apple-mvp-customer_care-us-20090512_480×272.mov
@Zuney
I’m afraid that answer is all too clear these days. When was the last time you saw a Wal-Mart go out of business? They are not known for “high quality” products. Their slogan is “Always a low price” and I think that says what consumers really go for. Even if the low cost is short sighted in the long run, they don’t plan ahead (if you don’t believe me, just ask around to see how many have crushing credit card debt).
So while I’d like to see a quality product be what is sought after, these days it will be relegated to those minorities that have the means and desire to be motivated by non-price related aspects (no matter what the goods).
@Avro
Yes, I was speaking about Consumer Reports published by Consumers Union here in the States. I’ve been a subscriber to that magazine for a long time, and value their independent analysis of products. My experiences have held true to their findings, so I have had no reason to mistrust them.
Overall, I’ve moved into the Mac world completely blind to the history. I’ve called Microsoft for support and been overwhelmingly disappointed every time (yes, I paid for those support calls). I dealt with Apple three times. Once for a bug in OS X (yes, a real live confirmed bug), once for a defective iPhone and once for a failed MacBook Pro 17″ battery. In every case they took ownership of the issue, set expectations and either met or exceed those and left me with a positive feeling about Apple in the process. While this may not be representative, from what I read (online, consumer reports, etc) this appears to be the rule rather than the exception.
Some of those big Apple margins are paying for that, and it’s part of how I assess the quality of an organization. At least if I’m upset with my Apple products, I can go to a retail location and confront some one about it. Apple has to pay for those people and locations as well. Employees in the US are expensive compared to call centers in India. Which one would you rather deal with (Sorry Non-US people, but I expect you’d also like to deal with someone in your country when possible).
All of this, however, means I had to think a little further than a price tag. That, I feel, is the exception. It’s about the of the overall computing public.
Fun and spirited topic though!
Brian “no such thing as a short answer to anything” Hertziger
@ Brian
I must agree with you. While I use OS X 90% of the time 90% of my problems are with the Windows boxes. I use my Macs for work and I cannot afford to be cheap. Like you I prefer to have support with a native English speaker and we get ours from Ireland. Absolutely charming.
My experience with AppleCare has been superb.
A very satisfied Mac owner.
@Brian
I’ll take an insighful response in multiple paragraphs over ‘text-messaged-concatenated’ Twitterese any day.
I expect there is a high positive correlation between poor Windows experience and Mac switching, but this leaves the potential for multiple satisfied Windows users for every Windows hater. There are a lot of Windows users out there, and I can’t bring myself to believe that they are ALL cheap, poor, and/or ignorant. That’s the elitist position that draws Mac disdain.
Just got around to listening. Busy busy and all that…
Just to pick up on a couple of things Zuney said right at the end. He asks where is the data as to why Macs are better than ‘normal’ PCs? That’s a loaded question for which there is no answer. It’d be kind of like asking for definitive facts as to why pizza tastes better than chocolate… which it does by the way.
There can only ever be subjective opinions and personal preference. From my perspective, Macs are indeed the stratospherically better platform. But I’m well aware I’m not the centre of the universe, and others (like Zuney et al) will have a different perspective and very different priorities to mine. Where arguments start is when certain opinionated types on either ’side’ start throwing generalisations around, and dismissing anyone who doesn’t share their priorities. And that’s why the smackdown will live forever!
The question does remain though, of all the ~94% of folk worldwide who use Windows as opposed to Macs, does that mean Windows really is the better option for all of them? Microsoft’s top brass and their advocates would like us to think so. But really?
Which leads onto Zuney’s other comment that there are oodles of folk out there that have bought netbooks and are perfectly happy with them. As Cal says, there are millions of Joe Schmoes who don’t understand and don’t want to understand computers. Many of them will have bought one of these cheap ‘n’ cheerful netbooks, and are indeed seemingly happy with their purchase. However, I would ask, are they happy because they extensively researched all their options and got their ideal computer? Or are they happy because they’re blissfully ignorant of whether there’s something else that would make them even happier?
Similarly, do these folk with their netbooks or base level PC towers only use them for web and email because that’s really all they’ll ever need? Or is it because no computer they’ve ever had, has made them feel compelled to explore any further? Would they find more use for their computer if it was simpler and more intuitive to use?
@Wayne
Your figures are a bit dated. Windows marketshare dipped below 90% some time ago and you have to go back to 1993 when the world still had Atari and Amiga, when it was that low before. Like Internet Explorer, Windows is on a downward slide which shows no signs of reversing.
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9121938/Windows_market_share_dives_below_90_for_first_time
A great reason for Windows popularity is ignorance. Not in the sense of stupidity, but in the sense of lack of knowledge. Linux and Mac Users usually have an experience of using Windows, while most Windows Users generally have used nothing but Windows. I get some questions from Windows Users contemplating a switch “But will I be able to do things like emails, web browsing and word processing?” These are not stupid people in any sense, they just don’t know. I call it ‘Redmond Syndrome’. They are not happy with Windows, but are frightened of leaving it for the unknown.
They remind me of people in the 70s with cars. In the UK many people had cars from British Leyland. They certainly left much to be desired, but everybody thought that’s just the way a car was, unreliable and horrid at starting in the morning. Then Honda and Toyota came on to the market and the view of what a car should be changed. The same thing happened in the US. The more people get to know and use OS X and Linux – the greater and swifter the drop in Windows market share.
You can say 88% is a still impressive. But you need to subtract 70% for Enterprise. When it comes down to consumers choosing an OS we are looking at 18% Windows vs 12% Mac and Linux. How soon before that is 15% vs 15%?
Internet Explorer’s fall from grace has been pretty quick. Windows fall, especially if Enterprise starts going to Linux, might by just as quick.
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/05/since-march-internet-explorer-lost-114-percent-share-to-firefox-safari-and-chrome/
@ Mark We are never going to get the data you so desire unless each computer had a fault reporting transmitter. And let’s face it there are Windows Users out there who think that all computers have down time.
A bit like judging all cars by the Morris Marina standard. It’s only when you use OS X, Windows and Linux that you start to have a proper yardstick to judge by.
@Avro regarding Windows market share
No, what your article is quoting, are web usage statistics, not worldwide market share. For that, Windows is still up around the mid 90s. And we can extrapolate that by subtracting the Mac market share of circa 3% and Linux of circa 1%. And that will probably remain so for the foreseeable future, despite their losses with consumers in the US.
I’ll leave the rest of your post to Zuney et al.
@ Wayne
I don’t think anybody measures market share the way you refer to. A Windows computer sitting unused and unloved in a warehouse would count in your figures. Market share is done by looking at computers actually in use.
@ Avro
No, estimating installed userbase from web usage statistics is in no way how market share is measured. It’s how many boxes are being shifted out of factory doors. These numbers can be sourced from Gartner. And with all manufacturers being in the same boat, the end figures should be pretty representative as to how many are being sold too. That is market share. And by that measure, for every 20 PCs sold worldwide today, 19 will still have Windows installed on them.
Speaking of market share – as we were – it’s quite an interesting statistic that if you take the US out of the equation, the Mac has only around 2%. So what does that tell us?
Future smackdown suggestion Cal!
@ Wayne
Lies, damned lies and statistics.
A little knowledge is always dangerous. Apple doesn’t publish figures for the US, but for North and South America and we know that Apple usage is actually higher in Canada than the US.
If I was to believe your claim it would seem that from Web Usage statistics Mac Users used their computers 4X as much as Windows Users. That is a heck of a lot of downtime for Windows!
Let us analyse your claim:
Out of those 20 computers you mention, 14 are bought by Enterprise who won’t move from Windows due to pure inertia. Of the 5 Windows machinse that consumers buy 4 will be almost unusable and one guy will become so annoyed he will wipe his drive and install Ubuntu on it. So we end up with 1 Mac User, 1 Windows User and 1 Ubuntu user.
@ Avro
Mac market share at Q2 2009:
US – 8.47%
Elsewhere – 1.99%
Total (world) – 3.47%
Assuming Linux & others total ~1.5%, that leaves Windows with ~95%.
Spin and twist it anyway you want, but the numbers are the numbers. See for yourself:
http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=724111
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/07/21results.html
Yes and in which mythical land does Gartner get their numbers? Apple doesn’t release sales figures for the US only. Gartner doesn’t seem to match up with official figures. Are they backed by little old Microsoft?
Apple’s SEC Filings (which are legal and HAVE TO BE PROVEN) show North and South America (33 Countries) accounting for 51% of Mac sales by unit and the rest of the world 49%. Kind of blows Gartner out of the water doesn’t it.
Gartner’s figures also create the wrong impression. Macs sell well in Canada and the US, Western Europe, Australia and New Zealand and Japan and don’t have much of a presence outside of those countries. So where they compete in the market, Apple is doing very well indeed and profits are increasing. Microsoft cannot say the same. They are clearly floundering.
Link to SEC filings:
http://blogs.eweek.com/applewatch/content/corporate/apple_fiscal_2008_by_the_numbers.html
@ Avro
Ahh, so Gartner is being paid by Microsoft to falsify its figures to make Apple look bad? Riiiight…
I think we’re done here.
I asked a question, I didn’t make a statement.
Please explain why the Gartner figures are so out of whack with the REAL figures in the SEC filings from Apple?
It is the smackdown and everyone is entitled to their opinion, smackon! With that thought. I will state my own Opinion.
user of apples such as apple II, and IIe, IIgs. I left the mac world when they released the mac classic (that little mac with a handle). portable, yes. useful. . .absolutely not. it was cute, but over priced for what it was.
from then i was a hardcore computer geek building my own. specing out the details.
I left Windows for my beautiful Mac OSX when i heard they went Intel and the realiability. What i saught was what i got. This Macbook Pro is by far the most reliable laptop i have ever owned. I have owned 2 other laptops of which one was a compaq, and 2 were Dell.
My wife now has 2 macs and i must say these are the first two machines she has ever had that hasn’t failed her. trust me she has a curse. She has never had a machine that wasn’t hell to deal with. Premades, Customs, and even a straight up simple Dell. hardware, software, you name it she seemed to have it. She was a simple user. Word, excel, email, surfing. Now she has her macs and they just haven’t failed her yet. yes they a computers they can but no way.
does it blue screen? nope. It doesn’t annoy me with anti virus crap. best part is it takes less then 10 seconds where ever i am to get on a network, where every time i see a vista machine the wording and setup is so convoluted it annoys me. It is the reason i left Windows.
Now A Mac i must say is a Mac with hardware. I state the imac. the footprint of the hardware comparied to ANYTHING on the market. it has one power cable and a screen. no other case or anything. simply beautiful design and . . oh yeah. . .silent! very very silent. haven’t had a computer that nice sounding or lack of sounding EVER.
so again, IMO which i can have, Mac has won in this. Windows 7 has to compete with the well designed Mac OS and beautiful simple hardware and excellent support. I hate to say it, but Windows is going to have a hard time.
I don’t see myself going back.
Oh byt he way, why was i Windows? because everyone was. there wasn’t an alternative. Oh yeah, there was. Mac. and System 9 was a joke.
Eric
All very personal and excellent points. You make a convincing argument for why Apple has done right by you and yours. If only we could all have the same experiences, which I and my wife haven’t.
Thanks for chiming in and keeping the comments alive.